June 2nd, 2013, 05:17 AM
Need routine advice
I am really struggling with my routine again and I'm a bit lost.
Post the trichology consultation I am meant to :
wash scalp every two days with shampoo
Apply scalp tonicl after that
Use minoixdil (hormone chemical stuff) every day at night only
Weekly - use a special anti-dandruff treatment - it has emulsifier, oil , coal tar and exfoliating granules in it . Clearly on the scalp. At the same time use a treatment on the length
The trouble is I am shedding worse than ever. Part of this could be the minoxidil shed. Part could be that I am using a comb not a brush. The brush kind of picks up all the shed hair nicely and it can be pulled out and stuck in the bin. With a comb hairs float out onto the floor and end up on my socks on the carpet YUK. The trouble is the longest hairs are now over 40 inches in length so that's quite gross.
I have become utterly obsessed with counting shed hairs. Today I detangled a braid as I washed last night and rebraided. I lost 29 hairs. OUch. Most of the hairs I am shedding are full length - I guess beacuse they are the oldest ones? Some shorter ones from nape and bang area.
Yesterday was a hair treatment day so I lost about 75 hairs over the day ! That's a huge amount. I had to detangle three times - morning, pre and post treatment. I do find the scalp treatment stuff helps with the flakes but makes my head itchy and the little grains are like sand in my hair and I end up pulling a load out when detangling it. What happens is the shed hair gets tangled in the length and pulls out good hair with it.
I reckon I must shed 40-90 hairs a day on the basis of all the counting. Counting shed hairs is taking me ages and adding a lot of time to my routine and generally making me miserable but I can't see another way of working out how soon I am going to end up with bald patches.
I also have started using oil on the length again. I was told not to but it's on the length and I'm afraid I think I know how best to look after the length. Even the trichologist said they rarely see people with my length of hair (for UTT purposes its 46+ inches so pretty normal). The oil helps all those fine hairs and protects them and aids with detangling. I have always found that I pull a lot of hair out when detangling.
I also am not convinced about the scalp treatment. I had got control of the itching using dilute vinegar rinses and spraying listerine on the worst bits. I am not itching where the thinning hair is so I don't think it's a hair loss itch unless I loose all my neck hair soon!
I also don't like washing every two days. I don't like their shampoo either. I sound like a right old fusspot now. My routine has always involved as little handling as possible - so not to much putting up and down and fussing as tangles = knots = hair loss. I don't mind spraying my scalp with redbush tea or a little water to freshen up after two days but I prefer to wash twice a week. So I might have a little more dandruff this way but it's no itchier. Is this wrong?
Help please I am stuck as to what to do. I can't believe that my old routine on the length is going to affect the thinning areas or have I missed something?
June 2nd, 2013, 09:09 AM
If what they're telling you isn't working then I wouldn't do it.
I was given shampoo and a scalp treatment by my dermatologist for my SD. I didn't like either one, so I don't use them. I found what works for me. Unfortunately it just takes trial and error. It took me YEARS (yes, years) of trial and error before I found what works, then a wrench got thrown in with the eczema and SD diagnoses.
What does work for me is more naturally based products.
Here's my basic routine atm....
1. Shampoo three times a week. Each time I use Malibu C's Scalp Therapy Shampoo. Conditioners vary, but is either Malibu C's Scalp Therapy Shampoo, their deep treatment, or Darcy's Botanicals pumpkin seed conditioner. I use Malibu C's Scalp treatment once a week and use a daily Leave In too, usually Darcy's Botanicals Peach Kernel Nectar or Darcy's Botanicals Sweet Cocoa Bean Curl Smoothing Cream, which is my fave. I don't use any styling products other than that, but I will use oils on my hair or scalp if necessary.
2. Scalp treatment with Darcy's Botanicals Peppermint Scalp Elixir or a hormonal treatment given me by my chiropractor.
3. Air dry most of the way, then dry just a bit, pull my hair up and forget it.
That's it really. I do keep track of my shedding in the shower and in my brushes. It's WAYYYY down, like instead of getting 100 in the shower alone after 2 days I only get 20.
Incidentally, 40-90 shed hairs a day is perfectly normal.
HTH....and hope you get it figured out.
eta the Darcy's Scalp Elixir is made to help with thinning hair and loss and growth. I don't use it consistently like I should but I've seen a difference anyway!
Goals reached: SL, SBL, CBL, APL, BSL, MBL Next Goals: Anatomical Waist, Hip
Cosmetology educator who is ingredients sensitive due to eczema, sebborheic dermatitis, gluten sensitivity and allergies.
June 2nd, 2013, 09:40 AM
Miranda, I know it's hard, terribly so, but I would stop obsessing over the shed hair. It's really doing you no good and it's causing a lot of extra stress, stress you don't need with a condition like that. It's quite normal to lose up to 100 hairs a day, nothing out of the ordinary there. I know why you're so worried about it, but... I'd stop fussing over it so much.
I'd give the new routine a go. You can't know unless you try, and really try. Then if it's no good, you can always revert back to a previous routine.
June 2nd, 2013, 01:03 PM
You have not specified in this thread what your diagnosis/ diagnoses are, just seborrhoeic dermatitis or more? Is the hair loss part of the irritation/ inflammation component of the SD or diagnosed as a separate issue?
Originally Posted by Miranda
SD you are not being irritated by the malassezia yeast itself, but by your own sebum and the waste products of the yeast (especially oleic acid in both cases). Just because you cannot see inflammation does not mean it is not there, inflammation can be at the cellular level, follicular level or systemically and you may see little to nothing of any of that unless you run bloods or use a microscope. The symptoms are the flaking and itching, these may not subside until your skin has had a period of days or weeks without irritants to calm and repair.
You need to wash your scalp regularly to keep the sebum and yeast population down, avoiding oil is because most plant oils are rich in oleic acid, stearic or palmitic acids (provide food for the yeast). It's extremely difficult to keep that off your scalp unless you are wearing your hair down or just braided at all times. Also sebum and oils can block any water based actives in your prescription from properly contacting the skin. You might be best relying on silicones or mineral oil for detangling which won't feed the malassezia.
Have you modified your diet and lifestyle to be as anti inflammatory, anti stress (not just life events but sleep, smoking, etc) and nutrient dense as possible? This can affect the amount and composition of your sebum, reduce systemic inflammation, reduce inappropriate immune response, strengthen the skin's barrier function, balance any hormonal issues, provide he nutrients needed for healthy hair. TBH it sounds like you are quite stressed/ obsessed over the hair issue (understandably) which will do you no favours at all.
June 2nd, 2013, 01:40 PM
I have very mild sd which I can happily live with but the big issue is female pattern baldness so androgenic thinning hence the hormones.
I know I should stop obsessing over lost hairs but I am quite concerned that once gone they will never be replaced.
I can't modify my lifestyle anymore. I work part time but have three children and I have to burn the candle at both ends if I am going to keep them fed and clothed.
I do take a good range of supplements and eat well. Diet was a huge part of the trichology advice as my vitamin d and iron were below normal.
Lapushka I feel I have tried the new routine for four weeks now and I don't like it. I really don't want to wash my hair more than twice a week. They did say I could leave it three days so one of those washes is ok. It's the four day stretch which I am not supposed to do.
I wear my hair in a braided bun most of the time with oil on the length 12 inches down so it is possible some will get onto my scalp. I could use mineral oil I suppose. Right now I like jojoba. I really struggle with cones as I need to clarify every fortnight. The good news is the clarifying shampoo is not irritating in fact I love it.
The Malibu c shampoo is great. I gave up after two weeks with the prescribed shampoo. The was nothing for the scalp that I could see in the ingredients list so prefer the Malibu.
June 2nd, 2013, 01:52 PM
messy is good
Yes, please stop counting shed hairs, but you already know it is stressing you out even more. Can you keep it to once weekly, or even better, every other week? I guess I always figured if I noticed excessive shedding, I'd just check my ponytail circumference rather than counting shed hairs.
Everyone else has given some pretty sound advice. Have you discussed your issues with your prescribed routine with your trichologist? There may be alternative products and routines he/she can recommend that work better for you and possibly provide more explanation as to the why for certain parts of the routine. Firefox did a thoroughly fantastic job on the oil above!
Oh, and !
June 2nd, 2013, 04:32 PM
You mentioned that your iron was below normal. It's low iron that causes my shedding. Mine was single digits and every time it gets around 20 my doctor thinks it's okay to stop the supplements but from what I've read it needs to be around 40 to stop shedding and 70-80 for regrowth to occur.
I also lose 100 or more hairs a day. It depends on your source but some say 100 and some say up to 150 a day is normal. I try not to stress over it. I've found I shed far less with 'poo bars than I do with shampoo and conditioner. I went back to shampoo and conditioner for my son's wedding and shed like crazy.
It's great to get expert advice and to consider it, but sometimes I think we know our own bodies best and whether something is working or feels right for us. I don't want to discourage you from following the advice your specialist has given you, but if something is really not working for you, can you talk to them about it? Is it possible that the shedding will increase before settling down on the routine you've been given?
June 2nd, 2013, 04:35 PM
My iron is also around 20. It was 7 after I had the children and has taken 3 years to get up to 20. I was told like you 80 would be desirable for regrowth.
Thank you all for replies. The more I think about the more I think I do have a yeasty head!It explains why vicks has been so helpful on the itching!
June 2nd, 2013, 05:04 PM
I'm not a big fan of a range of supplements, only those which are essential to correct diagnosed imbalances, holes in the diet (eg. allergies or religious restrictions), most times IME from working in lifestyle healthcare if clients actually need a range of supplements they are not eating the healthy diet they claim or worsening imbalances by not understanding the synergies. Are you not eating the recommended minimum two servings of oily fish each week? There is a ton of bioavailable vitamin D, long chain omega-3s which are powerful anti inflammatories and key in hormone balance plus many other micronutrients like haem iron which you are also low on. Look for small sea fish like sardines/ pilchards, mackerel and herring if you are concerned about contaminants, canned oily fish is super convenient for busy parents.
Originally Posted by Miranda
Can you practice stress management techniques, are you managing to get the equivalent of the recommended minimum 10,000 steps every single day even if that is within physical activities with your children so you multi-task? Poor sleep patterns put the body under huge stress, planned targeted relaxation and daily physical activity can mitigate against that to some extent.
Just because you cannot see inflammation or irritation does not mean it is not present at the cellular or follicular level, sulphate surfactants are scientifically proven to dehydrate and thin the skin even in healthy individuals at concentrations as low as 1%, yet most of us wander around blissfully unaware of this, using these surfactants once or many times a day on our hands or body. What about water soluble (PEG-) cones or ones that don't build up? Or do the clarifying wash without getting close to your scalp?
Amodimethicone and other Amine-functionalized Silicones
Sorry to be blunt but I don't understand the purpose of seeing a trichologist if you are unwilling to follow their rules? Switching from one prescribed drug or topical (in your case shampoo) to a prescribed alternative because the first did not work out is completely normal no doctor or pharmacist should turn a hair at that, but to only follow half a system is high risk for it simply not working. With dermatological complaints this multi pronged attack is exactly what is needed, everything works synergistically. You are expending huge amounts of energy on feeling stressed and obsessed yet you won't wash your hair every two days nor quit your oils?
June 3rd, 2013, 07:27 AM
I don't get it either, sorry. You said you gave the new routine a good go, but are unwilling to wash as required. That's a big issue right there. You also only followed the new routine for 2 weeks you said (or 4), that's about 2 to 4 washes (you're not washing twice a week, right), so not much to be able to tell. I need to stick with my Nizoral at least 4 weeks (4 washes) for it to *start* *to* clear up. The itching goes almost immediately, but the flakes/scales take longer to clear up.
Originally Posted by Firefox7275